Ex-DEATH/MASSACRE Guitarist RICK ROZZ Doesn't Believe Any One Person Should Get Credit For Being 'Godfather' Of Death Metal

In a new interview with "Reckless" Rexx Ruger of the Pod Scum podcast, former Rick Rozz, who was a member of an early version of DEATH as well as the pre-DEATH band MANTAS alongside guitarist/vocalist Chuck Schuldiner and drummer/vocalist Kam Lee, was asked where he would put Chuck in terms of his status as the "pioneer" and "inventor" of the death metal genre and whether Schuldiner should be placed "at the forefront" or "near the forefront" of that list, along with POSSESSED's Jeff Becerra. Rick responded (as transcribed by BLABBERMOUTH.NET): "It doesn't really matter to me. But as far as him being the dude, I mean, Kam and I were there too, so it's not just one person. If people are gonna say that, and I'm not patting myself on the back, but you can't just give the credit to one person, just like you can't give the credit to just Jeff Becerra. There's a whole band behind him. That's just my opinion. But [Chuck is] definitely in the top five, along with other people. That's the way I look at it."

Rick continued: "I don't look at all that frickin' 'godfather' this, that, blah, blah, blah, blah. We all got lucky. And people respect that, and it's very flattering, but I don't know how to accept it, to be honest with you. But … it's not just one person, I'll leave it at that. No disrespect to Chuck or anything like that, but it's more than one [person]."

Rozz went on to say that "the voice is a huge part" of the death metal sound and that early growlers were responsible for developing the vocal technique which is still used in extreme metal. "They're the spokesperson," Rick said. "And Kam Lee, he sang over 80% of that MANTAS stuff. So he was singing way before… We had songs written and we were playing 'em before Chuck had any lyrics or Chuck even sang. So, Kam was the one that really did that first. So he's kind of above Chuck on that top five because I think Chuck learned a lot from him.

"Anyway, yeah, I'm not dogging anybody," Rozz clarified. "I'm just stating facts, and I'm not afraid to state the facts. And that's the way I feel. People might feel differently, but it's in black and white and on tape. Kam was the original singer for that band."

Although DEATH is considered to be one of the most important and influential death metal acts of all time, the Florida-based band did not release its debut album, "Scream Bloody Gore", until 1987 — two years after the arrival of "Seven Churches" by California's POSSESSED, whose bassist/vocalist, Jeff Becerra, is credited by some with initially creating the term "death metal" in 1983.

In a June 2025 interview with Conexión Rock Radio, Becerra, who was shot in a robbery in 1989, leaving him partially paralyzed and wheelchair-bound, weighed in on the never-ending debate on who can lay claim to being the first "true" death metal band: DEATH or POSSESSED. He said in part: "As you know, Chuck was a good friend. And I don't see death metal as just being one thing or ever being perfected. I see it as a spiritual freedom. It's not necessarily a combination of certain elements that make a predictable outcome. And Chuck and me were very much similar on our thoughts there.

"I don't know if you know this, but Chuck, before 'Scream Bloody Gore', he moved down [to the San Francisco Bay Area] into the POSSESSED fan club president's house to be nearer to us, to be nearer to me," Jeff explained. "And so I remember when Chuck was showing me the precursors of 'Scream Bloody Gore', he was very, very into POSSESSED. He said, 'Listen, Jeff. I sound just like you.' And he said, 'Is that okay?' And I said, 'Hell yeah, it's okay.' And it was that moment I realized that there would be more than one death metal band because it was really branding. We knew that there was thrash metal, we knew VENOM was black metal, we knew there was speed metal, and we said, 'We wanna make…' POSSESSED was very unique. At that time we were carte blanche the heaviest band on the planet. And we said, 'Let's call ourselves death metal. And that will separate us from the other bands, 'cause people will say, 'POSSESSED is that death metal band.'' So naively, I thought that POSSESSED would be the only death metal band and would be known as 'that death metal band'. But then when Chuck came around, just really, really enamored and coming, wanting to be closer to the scene, I knew it would take off. And so I think that without Chuck, I don't think it would've ever become a 'genre genre'. I think that was a combination of me and Chuck and what followed after that, that that really made it take off.

"To put things in perspective, DEATH was probably quadruple as big as POSSESSED," Jeff added. "We pretty much ended when they were hitting their heyday, and they just took off. They were wildly successful. And so they were a much more commercially viable band that was sellable, and POSSESSED has always been kind of a weird 'nichey' band that doesn't sell as much. So, yeah, it took that. And I, honest to God, don't think that… I think it was a combination. I don't think that death metal would've had the staying power if it wasn't for Chuck. And he was a good friend — a really good friend and a great guy."

Elaborating on the musical connection he had with Chuck, Jeff said: "It's weird because I was very much into… And remember, I was just a kid back then. We were young teenagers. And so when I met Chuck, I didn't know who he was. He was just some kid sitting on the couch. And he was really, like, 'Hey, Jeff, come here.' So I sat there and he's, like, 'Check out this riff.' And I was, like, 'Hey, whatever. I'm doing whatever.' 'Hey, check out this riff.' And then pretty soon he just kept riffing and riffing, and I was taking notes. I was, like, 'Dude, this is a riff lord.' He was just busting out with riff after riff after riff. And so I just kind of witnessed the way his mind worked. He was just very intense and very into his craft. And, of course, that was really inspiring. We were both very individual and doing what we're doing, but Chuck, he was noticeably amazing right from the get-go. Chuck was a genius in his creations. And I think that I was in good company. It was good that he was sitting on our couch at the right time. It seemed like a normal day back then, but now that I look at it, it's like — there are no coincidences. Everything happens for a reason. Like when I broke up with my first band BLIZZARD, I just happened to meet [early POSSESSED guitarist] Mike Torrao, who was of a similar mindset to be the heaviest band in the world. That shit is amazingly coincidental, because nobody was thinking that back then. I just happened to meet that one guy that's like-minded. And so it's crazy. I think it was destined to be. I think that bands like POSSESSED and DEATH, it was just something that was happening… I wanted to be heavier, and I couldn't get heavy enough. And I think that Chuck saw that in me, and he heard it in our music and he wanted to be closer. And it was just really cool to be part of that scene. And then, of course, you [later] had bands like SADUS and AUTOPSY, and it just kind of snowballed from there. And it's been a really neat history and just visceral and organic, the way it went."

Three years ago, Becerra was asked by Jerry Kurunen of Finland's Rauta if POSSESSED is rightfully credited with initially creating the term "death metal" in 1983. He said: "One hundred percent. I had the copyright in 1983. POSSESSED was the very first death metal band. That doesn't mean we created death metal; it just means we were the first [to call ourselves death metal]. 'Cause every band after that does their own shit. So, yeah, we were just the first, man. And I'm surprised somebody didn't think of it before, to be honest. It's so obvious.

"Back then, you've gotta realize, with very few exceptions — maybe SLAYER, KREATOR, SODOM, DESTRUCTION, EXODUS — most thrash metal bands were — and with all due respect — were kind of bouncy kind of hair bands," he explained. "They would say, 'Oh, we're so heavy,' but they were never really heavy. 'We're so evil.' And there was nothing wrong with that, but that just isn't what blew our skirts up.

"I happened to meet Mike Torrao at a very pivotal moment in our life, and we were just, like, 'Fuck the world. Fuck everything. And let's just make the heaviest, most Satanic music in the world.' And trash metal was taken, black metal was taken, speed metal was taken, fucking power metal was taken. Why not death metal? Like, 'Okay.' So then I wrote a song called 'Death Metal', and that was it. But it was more about the music and then the title, but the title seemed to outweigh the music. I don't know.

"These days POSSESSED get a lot more recognition, but we're not one of those famous bands; we're still underground. You're really lucky to be recognized within your lifetime."

Becerra previously weighed in on the debate about DEATH or POSSESSED being the first death metal band during a June 2022 appearance on "The Haunting Chapel" podcast. He said at the time: "We [POSSESSED] were selling ourselves as a death metal band, and that was what we went with. And to this day, it's both a blessing and a curse because it's highly debated and contested. And we literally, after I got shot, certain revisionists tried to block me out of history. The POSSESSED Wiki is the most vandalized page of Wikipedia. There was a certain person — he recently passed away — that was just relentlessly retitling our YouTube, moving our dates forward, messing with the timeline. It was like a battle. When I left, we were the death metal guys. When I came back, it was no more. So I had to fight for my own history back, which was weird. 'Cause there's no cool way to do that, because it sounds like you're tooting your own horn.

"I'm not saying I created death metal; I'm saying POSSESSED was the first death metal band," Jeff explained. "And it's a bone of contention with many DEATH fans. And because of the way that their management spun it and the way that the magazines spun it… Remember, me and Chuck were friends. He literally was like my protégé. He moved out to Antioch [California from Orlando]; he lived at the [house of the then-]POSSESSED fan club [president Krystal Mahoney]. He was pen paling for a while and tape trading. And he very much modeled himself after me. I was so honored because, remember, I'm just a young teenager. But he was the first person to really get what we were doing, what I was doing, and he was the first person that really understood what it was about. And he was so smart that way because it was undefined and so hard to explain what it is, without putting rules on it, because the last thing you wanna do is put rules on anything and stifle it. But he would just grasp it; he loved it. He said, 'Listen, Jeff. I sound just like you.' And he was proud of that. And I was proud of him. And there was a bromance going there. It was a respect.

"I've never been jealous of another band," Becerra clarified. "I've never claimed anything that wasn't mine. And it's just so obscure to see people trying to claim what they know they wouldn't do in front of me. They know what they didn't do; I was fucking there. And I'm not hating on anybody, but it's a very coveted position.

"What makes me mad is when the magazines spin this 'DEATH or POSSESSED, DEATH versus POSSESSED.' And it even tainted the relationship between DEATH and POSSESSED, and that pisses me off, because we were friends.

"I realize that metal is supposed to be fun," Jeff added. "But there's also something very valid about true history and not revising stuff — not just with POSSESSED but any band. And the way it's spun is, like, bands will exaggerate what they did and the writers will be eager to impress who they're writing about, because the last thing a writer wants is for the band to go, 'This is fucking fucked up.'

"In the old days, it was very truthful. People did their research. They didn't have clickbait. There was no 'POSSESSED versus DEATH.' I hate that shit. Because if Chuck was alive today, I'd like [us to] collaborate. And I don't like it fucking with my remembrance of what it really was. I like the history. Maybe I'm being weird about it, but I think that the truth is so much better than the tale."

Becerra told Antihero in 2017 that Schuldiner cited POSSESSED as a "primary influence" in "countless" magazine interviews. But even though DEATH was inspired by POSSESSED, "they ran with it and went in their own direction and created their own vibe," Jeff said. "To go a step further: Chuck used ['80s death/thrash producer] Randy Burns, who did 'Seven Churches' to do 'Scream Bloody Gore', his first album. He also did a cover of [POSSESSED's] 'The Exorcist'."

Schuldiner died in December 2001 after a battle with pontine glioma, a rare type of brain tumor.

POSSESSED originally split in 1987, leaving behind a short but highly influential legacy, most notably "Seven Churches". Internal tensions after the release of 1987's "The Eyes Of Horror" EP led to the band's dissolution, with guitarist Larry Lalonde joining Bay Area tech-thrashers BLIND ILLUSION, then PRIMUS, while Becerra, Torrao and drummer Mike Sus each going separate directions.

Two years after POSSESSED's split, Becerra was the victim of the aforementioned failed armed robbery attempt, sending him into a spiral of drug and alcohol abuse. POSSESSED was reactivated by Torrao in 1990 with a completely different lineup, but only released two demos before dissolving in 1993. Becerra then reformed POSSESSED in 2007 with his own lineup, which released its first studio album in 33 years, "Revelations Of Oblivion", in 2019. A follow-up LP is currently in the works for a tentative 2026 release.

Last August, Kam was asked by Soundterror about the fact that many people consider the early MANTAS and DEATH demos "the birthplace of death metal growling". Kam commented: "Well, in DEATH and MANTAS, when we started in DEATH, I basically just started kind of mimicking a lot of what we were taking influences from, which was… We were tape trading for one. I was a tape trader, so I was getting a lot of stuff from all over the place. So you'd get tapes from like POSSESSED, of course, was a big influence. There was stuff from SACRIFICE coming out of Canada. There was stuff from Paul Speckmann [DEATH STRIKE, MASTER] coming out of Chicago, and there was stuff overseas like early HELLHAMMER. There was stuff like VENOM. It was a big influence on MANTAS in the beginning. So it was kind of like a combination of trying to like combine all that stuff. Plus being underage and 16, you're just kind of screaming and you have all this angst and anger, and I come from the punk world, so I just wanted to kind of like express it that way. Plus I was playing drums at the same time. So it was a lot of trying to do that. But then when I found the growl, it really wasn't until MASSACRE that I really started… I changed it because earlier, prior to that was more screechy-type vocals, and Chuck started to sing as well, and he took it more in a more of his influence from [POSSESSED's] Jeff Becerra and was trying to sound more like Jeff, where I was, like, 'I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna sound like somebody else.' So I tried to come up with my own thing. And I thought, what was the most primal thing that I could think of? A lot of people will always say, oh, well, there was demonic movies like 'The Exorcist', or stuff like that. But to me, it was more or less about being primal, being natural. And to me, the most natural thing that was hair-raising is — I was raised around a lot of large dogs, like rottweilers and pitbulls, and I knew that the scariest thing that I ever felt as a 14-year-old was being between four or five rottweilers during feeding time, where you had to go out and give them food. And if you've ever been around large dogs, when you bring out a bowl of food, they all begin to growl this low growl because one wants to be the alpha, wants to be dominant, and it's kind of hair-raising. And I thought, that's what I wanna do with vocals. I wanna do something that's hair raising. I want to do something that sounds primal, sounds raw, sounds natural. And I started to mimic dogs. That's literally how I got the growl."

Lee went on to say that he didn't know anybody else at the time who had adopted quite the same style of death metal growling. But he clarified: "I took phonetic enunciation influences from Tom G. Warrior, only because I heard the HELLHAMMER demo and I really liked how he phonetically spoke, even though at the time I didn't realize it was 'cause he was from Switzerland and English wasn't his natural language. I just liked the way that he phonetically said things. So I took that, and there's a lot of his nuances, like his little 'ooh' and his 'hey', and I just took that and I expanded it. Instead of just going, 'Hey,' I went, 'Heeeey.' I kind of brought it out more. So there was that influence. And just the general influence of everything coming out in that late '80s time. Like I said, everything from VENOM to Lemmy from MOTÖRHEAD, just anything that was really raspy and raw I was attracted to. So I tried to kind of take all of those influences all together and put 'em all together."

Asked what the reaction was from other people to the kind of music he, Chuck and Rick were making at the time, Kam said: "Chuck and I and Freddie [Frederick 'Rick Rozz' DeLillo] at the time, we knew we were doing something that was completely different, and everybody hated it. Everybody hated it. I remember people would say, 'This is shit. This will never last. This will never catch on. This is garbage.' And look — 40-something years later, it's one of the biggest influential music in metal today. We didn't realize we were doing something that was going to have this much impact, but we knew at the time we were doing something different because everything that was popular at the time was hair metal, everything like MÖTLEY CRÜE and that kind of stuff, and we just wanted to be the completely polar opposite of that. So we just gravitated to more underground music, and that's literally… We did our own thing. My influences, especially lyrically, came from horror movies 'cause I'm a big horror movie fan. So I loved the Lucio Fulci films and stuff like that. And Chuck too — a lot of the stuff on [DEATH's debut album] 'Scream Bloody Gore' literally comes from our love of Lucio Fulci and 'Evil Dead' and all those '80s films that just came out during that timeframe."

Back in August 2022, Kam once again weighed in on the never-ending debate on who can lay claim to being the first "true" death metal band: DEATH or POSSESSED. He said: "POSSESSED came first, because we all heard the POSSESSED demo in the tape trading. We were tape trading and we got the POSSESSED demo. And there's where you can hear the change, because we were sounding different — we were sounding very much like VENOM in the first MANTAS demo; very, veryVENOM cloning. As soon as we heard that POSSESSED demo… It was two bands, actually, that literally changed everything in DEATH — the POSSESSED demo and SLAYER's 'Show No Mercy'. Those two things right there changed everything. Because once we heard SLAYER's 'Show No Mercy', as far as the speed and aggression, and we heard POSSESSED, as far as the technicality of the guitars and the way that Jeff was singing, that's when we changed. We said, 'Okay, we need to be a combination of all three of these — we need to be a combination of the rawness of VENOM, the fast energy of SLAYER and that just evil, screechy and guitar ripping ways of POSSESSED. That literally was it. There's the three bands that are the blueprint of death metal, as far as I'm concerned."

A little over a month earlier, Kam was asked to elaborate on his comment during an appearance on "That Metal Interview" podcast that "Chuck ripped off POSSESSED. "I guess that was actually a bad choice of wording," Kam admitted to VWMusic. "Saying 'ripped off' makes it sound bad. I guess the proper wording should be 'took heavy influence from.' Although you could say that I ripped off HELLHAMMER and Tom G. Warrior, and I'm not going to get butthurt about it. I won't because it's fact. Yet some people don't care about facts. They just want to keep believing the fiction they bought into because it fits the messianic mold their 'hero-worshipping' icons have been fitted for. It disrupts their ideology and topples the tower when they hear their gods might not be as almighty as they once believed. It's that same sunken feeling when a kid for the first time is discovering that just maybe Santa Claus is not real. It hurts their feelings. Worse yet are those others out there manipulating those people who are hurt. Some people are just trying to jump on the pity party bandwagon with that one."

He continued: "I got a lot of hate from that statement, though it wasn't intended to downplay Chuck's influence on music, but rather to end the debate of who came first, DEATH or POSSESSED. Sadly, morons spun it to change the narrative, to fit their agenda, and to further instigate and cause strife."

Lee added: "Do I feel Chuck's influence is overstated? Let me put it this way — for the 'product and commodity,' his legacy became post mortem. In order to keep reselling and repressing albums, it's exactly what it's being marketed as. No, it's actually exactly what one should expect from a product sales pitch. I mean, you've got to make sure that your product is the people's choice, right? It's Coca-Cola vs Pepsi. McDonald's vs Burger King. Starbucks vs Dunkin Donuts. In the end, the company with the better commercial is always going to win over the masses."